tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post4606820465519931571..comments2024-01-04T19:27:02.335-08:00Comments on Zenpolitics: One Voice: whose voice?John Hilleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10072819649049077782noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-73279923411377746652012-07-10T11:44:56.094-07:002012-07-10T11:44:56.094-07:00Yes, indeed they will. Thanks for your time in res...Yes, indeed they will. Thanks for your time in responding to the comments.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />SharonAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751365614672319379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-80805165926421789342012-07-10T10:34:18.976-07:002012-07-10T10:34:18.976-07:00Thanks Sharon
Fair enough, let's agree to dis...Thanks Sharon<br /><br />Fair enough, let's agree to disagree.<br /><br />I hope, at least, that anyone reading this exchange might get some useful understanding of the key issues.<br /><br />Best wishes<br />JohnJohn Hilleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10072819649049077782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-30294059657557893382012-07-10T07:22:08.544-07:002012-07-10T07:22:08.544-07:00Thanks John, I'm staying with Finkelstein on t...Thanks John, I'm staying with Finkelstein on this for now - I would love to see American students from the Palestine Solidarity groups organise a lobby in Washington for the establishment and recongnition of the Palestinian state by Israel and the USA. A lot of liberal Jewish students would get on board with it too which would make it even more effective and I think they would quickly gain a lot of public support. <br /><br />I can see the points you're making, but I think Finkelstein is being more pragmatic and fair in what he is calling for. I know the two state solution cannot right the wrongs of the past, but trying to do so would break more than it would fix, in my opinion, and the two state option has a lot more chance of creating a stable framework for a peaceful future. I really do believe that Israel will have to succumb to international pressure on this more than on anything else (such as one state) if we all unite. <br /><br />Best wishes, SharonAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751365614672319379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-64051895060733617322012-07-10T03:33:55.751-07:002012-07-10T03:33:55.751-07:00Some useful assessment of how "Finkelstein fl...Some useful assessment of how "Finkelstein flinched":<br /> http://www.australiansforpalestine.net/58722<br /><br />JohnJohn Hilleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10072819649049077782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-23166351776829968042012-07-09T17:53:55.264-07:002012-07-09T17:53:55.264-07:00Hi Sharon
Thanks for your additional comments.
I...Hi Sharon<br /><br />Thanks for your additional comments.<br /><br />I don't think I'm viewing the issues through a black and white prism. On the contrary, it's to see the wider dynamics of the conflict, including the vital role of America and the West in persistently failing to pressure Israel into a solution.<br /><br />You cite Finkelstein, a figure I have great respect for, but think mistaken in some key regards - and, sadly, prone to some divisive commentary. <br /><br />In the video he talks of the impractibility of reaching a public with any one state argument. That's a legitimate position to take - and I believe our position, as non-Palestinians, is to help end the occupation and let them decide, ultimately, what kind of state they should live under. <br /><br />What he doesn't talk about, though, is the same kind of realism in expecting Israel ever to concede a true two state deal based on any serious relinquishing of the settlements or returning East Jerusalem. <br /><br />I say this as someone who, while in the West Bank last time, got a tour up around Ma'ale Adumim. And, seeing its strategic importance and privileged infrastructure confirmed for me the near certainty that Israel has NO intention of ever giving any of this up. <br /><br />So, the argument then moves onto one state by default; not just because of its ideological appeal (for some), but, more prosaically, because of the reality that two states won't happen - Israel will never allow it.<br /><br />All of which, again, returns us to the core problem of expansionist Zionism. As Jonathan Cook, in an acutely-analysed piece, concludes: <br /><br />"In truth, both a one-state and a genuine two-state arrangement are impossible given Israel’s determination to remain a Jewish state. The obstacle to a solution, then, is not about dividing the land but about Zionism itself, the ideology of ethnic supremacism that is the current orthodoxy in Israel. As long as Israel is a Zionist state, its leaders will allow neither one state nor two real states.<br /><br />The solution, therefore, reduces to the question of how to defeat Zionism. It just so happens that the best way this can be achieved is by confronting the illusions of the two-state dreamers and explaining why Israel is in permanent bad faith about seeking peace."<br /><br />http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/03/12/one-state-or-two-neither-the-issue-is-zionism/<br /><br />Thanks again for your engagement here.<br /><br />Best wishes<br />JohnJohn Hilleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10072819649049077782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-81089826871209957062012-07-09T12:54:00.765-07:002012-07-09T12:54:00.765-07:00Hi John,
I can see we are not going to convince ...Hi John, <br /><br />I can see we are not going to convince each other! I'm liberal and left-wing in my views, but I'm afraid even I'm not able to see things through such an utterly black and white prism. Norman Finklestein sums up very well where I stand, what I think is really going on here, and why I will not attack OneVoice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASIBGSSw4lI<br /><br />When taken at face value rather than through this prism, every statement you have referred to made by me or a member of OV makes its goal clear, and its actions and activities confirm its goal. I will call for Israel to end the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the blockade of Gaza, pull the majority of settlers out and let the rest take Palestinian citizenship, get a resolution of the refugee crisis according to International Law, and ensure minority rights are respected in both Israel and Palestine. I will call for international pressure and sanctions until it does so and I will call for violence to be renounced by both sides in order to get back to the table and get this deal signed. I've seen it happen for my family in Northern Ireland when everyone said it was impossible, and I believe that it can happen for Israel and Palestine too if we all keep our actions and our goals clear and united. <br /><br />Thanks for the discussion and best wishes. SharonAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751365614672319379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-19689326846462835912012-07-08T17:27:32.362-07:002012-07-08T17:27:32.362-07:00Cont...
"OV supported Abbas’ UN bid last Sep...Cont...<br /><br />"OV supported Abbas’ UN bid last September..." <br /><br />Again, predictably so. But even Abbas, a quisling placeman for Israel and the West, has now effectively abandoned any further pretence of this untenable position, declaring a lack of faith in his sponsors and playing for a rapprochement with Hamas, all for reasons of domestic political expediency/survival. <br /><br />"and I think the USA has been a weak mediator"<br /><br />The US is not a mediator, weak or strong. It's a fundamental part of the problem. It supports Israel right down the line, from the $3 billion it hands to Israel every year to its consistent veto actions at the UN. Your basic failure to see the nature of this relationship tells me much about both your blinkered understanding of the issues and your endorsement of OV. <br /><br />"...and can tell you ‘from the horse’s mouth’, that [OV] is nothing other than a genuine attempt to empower the civil society to demand the results that the politicians have thus far failed to deliver."<br /><br />People at the grassroots level may feel genuinely motivated, whether out of frustration or egalitarian purpose. But they need to take a much closer look at the deeper, more insidious purpose of OV and why it gets the sympathetic ear of Israeli and Western politicians. <br /><br />It's a useful front for soaking-up real dissent and activism. Try to understand how both Israel's 'we want peace' hasbara and the West's spurious 'two-state mediation' is assisted by OV's own supportive message. <br /><br />"One thing is for sure, if an organisation like OneVoice - whose actions and campaigns have consistently been true to its stated goal – is being continually attacked in the political arena, this situation is going to go on for a long time yet and it’s very depressing."<br /><br />Depression is understandable. But, again, what's the point of helping to maintain the deception? OV are only serving to divert people from the true issues and challenges, thus prolonging the conflict and problem. <br /><br />"...and that the two-state solution is proposed as being something that will truly fulfil the core interests of BOTH Palestinians and Israelis so that everyone can have a better future..."<br /><br />Will it do anything for the over twenty percent Palestinians/Arabs living inside Israel under apartheid conditions? Will it free Israelis from living under an effective theocracy - a Jewish state - rather than a truly democratic state of all citizens?<br /><br />Kind regards<br />JohnJohn Hilleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10072819649049077782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-30702446258601649952012-07-08T17:26:54.417-07:002012-07-08T17:26:54.417-07:00Hi Sharon
Thanks for your further comments. Some ...Hi Sharon<br /><br />Thanks for your further comments. Some replies:<br /><br />"OneVoice gets equal amounts of criticism from the left and the right as it is taking on the brave and difficult task "<br /><br />With respect, that's such a tired and cliched claim - often invoked by the BBC to 'prove its 'neutrality'and 'objectivity'. <br /><br />Does criticism of an organisation from different political persuasions somehow, automatically, render that organisation legitimate?<br /><br />"In Palestine, the youth leaders are criticised for ‘normalisation’".<br /><br />Precisely so, and for good reason. OV, Israeli and Palestinian, only serve to perpetuate the myth of a 'two-sided problem'. The responsibility of serious activists is not to mystify the issue, but to identify/oppose the principal aggressor and support those subject to that aggression. Anything else is political window dressing, giving a vital veneer of respectability to the primary aggressor. OV, in this regard, serves a crucial service in legitimising the Israel state and Israeli power. <br /><br />"I can see your point of view, but I think it may be based more on an understandable lack of belief in a two-state solution." <br /><br />One of the key things OV refuse to address is Israel's determined and SOLE wrecking of any two state deal, all in keeping with their relentless refusal to engage, seriously, in any peace process. This is the central context that OV, if it was a legitimate voice for peace and justice, would be highlighting.<br /><br />Ultimately, OV is a Zionist-upholding body. And Zionism - resulting in the occupation, settlement expansionand the apartheid treatment of Palestinians/Arabs - is the core problem that has to be challenged, not just for the sake of oppressed Palestinians but also for the true democratisation of Israelis. If you want an accurate reading of Zionism as the central issue, read people like Illan Pappe and Jonathan Cook. <br /><br />"I agree that the two-state option is almost dead." <br /><br />Not "almost". It's completely dead, a reality understood by those who criticise OV for helping to maintain the Israeli-serving fiction that it's still achievable.<br /><br />Cont. next comment...John Hilleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10072819649049077782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-25224412562972428492012-07-08T04:48:23.212-07:002012-07-08T04:48:23.212-07:00Oh, and I meant to comment on that quotation of a ...Oh, and I meant to comment on that quotation of a OneVoice Israel youth leader on the PACBI site that you mentioned. I have to admit, I was a bit stunned that a young Israeli mentioning how working to achieve peace will fulfil some of his own interests is being condemned. OV Palestine youth leaders can give equally strong reasons as to how an agreement (on the basis that OV is calling for) would benefit their interests, and indeed it is a powerful motivator for people to be involved for their own sake as much as for the sake of someone else - they are much more likely to stand firm when the going gets tough. <br /><br />Please be assured that a part of OneVoice's training programme in Israel also involves a component on understanding the needs and interests of Palestinians, and that the two-state solution is proposed as being something that will truly fulfil the core interests of BOTH Palestinians and Israelis so that everyone can have a better future.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751365614672319379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-59798306306928574442012-07-08T04:32:19.214-07:002012-07-08T04:32:19.214-07:00Hi John, thanks for replying. OneVoice gets equal ...Hi John, thanks for replying. OneVoice gets equal amounts of criticism from the left and the right as it is taking on the brave and difficult task of genuinely trying to facilitate an agreement that will satisfy the core interests of both sides, and in so doing, end this conflict for good.<br /><br />In Israel, the youth leaders are trying to stand firm in an environment where they get criticised for being soft ‘lefties’ and for being naïve in their belief that there is a partner for peace in Palestine. In Palestine, the youth leaders are criticised for ‘normalisation’, despite the fact that the main bulk of OneVoice’s activities happen in parallel in the two societies and both sides are doing all they can to finally get a state of Palestine established and recognised based on the 1967 border with East Jerusalem as its capital. <br /><br />The OV blog http://blog.onevoicemovement.org/one_voice/ gives detailed coverage of their activities from month to month, and it might be better to judge them based on their actions rather than on what other people from either ‘side’ say about them. OV supported Abbas’ UN bid last September and were one of the only voices in Israel calling for Israel to be the first state to recognise Palestine. They have started up the first ever two-state lobby in the Knesset which is now second in size only to the settler lobby, and OneVoice Israel has succeeded in stopping legalisation of some settlement outposts in the Knesset, as well as carrying out public and media campaigns to educate Israelis about the detriment of settlement expansion and call their government to account. <br />OneVoice Palestine has done tree-planting exercises to stop land being claimed by the Israeli government and is promoting non-violent resistance to the occupation in a variety of ways. Far from having no standing or support in Palestinian civil society, as of today, 297,832 Palestinians have added their voice on OneVoice’s electronic petition, along with 334,085 Israelis www.onevoicemovement.org, and more young people have passed through OV’s youth leadership training programme in Palestine than Israel, with the result that there are more active Palestinian volunteers within the OneVoice Movement than there are Israelis. <br /><br />I can see your point of view, but I think it may be based more on an understandable lack of belief in a two-state solution because of the failure of the Oslo process rather than on any particular action or messaging of OneVoice itself. I agree that the two-state option is almost dead. The situation has been too asymmetrical in terms of the involvement of world powers, and I think the USA has been a weak mediator considering the views of its electorate on this issue, which hampers even a genuine desire of any US president to facilitate an agreement.<br /><br />However, I know from close involvement with OneVoice and can tell you ‘from the horse’s mouth’, that it is nothing other than a genuine attempt to empower the civil society to demand the results that the politicians have thus far failed to deliver. But with attacks from both sides in such a polarised political environment (the cynicism in Israel and the justified anger in Palestine at the continued occupation), OneVoice’s ability to really mobilise the grassroots on both sides has been severely hampered. They could be a real force for change, but their brave stance is repeatedly shot down by those (as you pointed out) on both sides that perhaps would prefer a two-state solution to never come about. Backing a win-win outcome means letting go of the win-lose scenario, which for those in Israel AND in Palestine who envision themselves to eventually be on the winning side if the status quo is maintained, is just too hard to do. One thing is for sure, if an organisation like OneVoice - whose actions and campaigns have consistently been true to its stated goal – is being continually attacked in the political arena, this situation is going to go on for a long time yet and it’s very depressing.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751365614672319379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-73108201381661102042012-06-29T01:35:41.813-07:002012-06-29T01:35:41.813-07:00A seemingly noble mission statement which would un...A seemingly noble mission statement which would understandably attract many concerned to see a just solution. <br /><br />In truth, One Voice is a front organisation serving to perpetuate an apartheid Israeli state and proposing a Palestinian one still in subservient thrall to a dominant Israel.<br /><br />Crucially, One Voice has no standing or support from within the Palestinian civil community, nor that of active resistance groups pushing the Palestinian-backed case for Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS). <br /><br />Take, for example, this scathing assessment of One Voice from PACBI:<br /><br />"It is clear from an examination of the underlying logic and political analysis employed by OneVoice, and its Palestinian branch, that it is neither the logic of pressure on Israel nor a concern about justice for the Palestinian people that fuels their work. While paying lip service to “ending the occupation,” the overriding imperative is to serve Israel’s basic interest in remaining an apartheid state while promoting a form of a Palestinian state in order to secure that end. The philosophy of one of the leading Israeli youth activists, as showcased on the OneVoice website, “is that the establishment of an independent Palestinian state equals a more secure Israel, requiring less money toward its defense and security, and more toward civic and social development.” [3] Simply put, it is the interests of the occupier that drive the mission."<br /><br />See more here:<br /><br />http://www.pacbi.org/etemplate.php?id=1436<br /><br />JohnJohn Hilleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10072819649049077782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1725411122663433189.post-82199751052818755242012-06-21T03:04:07.458-07:002012-06-21T03:04:07.458-07:00The OneVoice common message from the homepage of t...The OneVoice common message from the homepage of their website:<br /><br />OneVoice is an international grassroots movement that amplifies the voice of mainstream Israelis and Palestinians, empowering them to propel their elected representatives toward the two-state solution. The movement works to forge consensus for conflict resolution and build a human infrastructure capable of mobilizing the people toward a negotiated, comprehensive and permanent agreement between Israel and Palestine that ends the occupation, ensures security and peace for both sides, and solves all final-status issues in accordance with international law and previous bilateral agreements. The 1967 borders form the basis for the establishment of an independent, viable Palestinian state, with permanent borders and any modifications to be agreed upon by both parties. The movement recognizes that violence by either side will never be a means to end the conflict.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15751365614672319379noreply@blogger.com